C18 Class rules

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peter connor
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C18 Class rules

Postby peter connor » Wed May 27, 2009 2:57 pm

Hi all

Could someone direct me to where I can get a copy or information of the Careel 18 Class rules.

I wish to resolve my boom sheeting system and need to know the exact requirements and the terminlogy used.

I have an end boom sheeting system but want to sheet the final lead postion from the floor into my forward hand. My view is that it is still end boom sheeting.

No motherhood statements please.

I want to see the exact requirements.

I find it a bit strange that the class rules don't control whether or not you can use a genoa as opposed to a jib, the type of rudder, whether the keel weighs 60 kgs, 120 kgs, 200kgs etc, whether the keel it is shaped or not, whether the keel is flat plate or lead weighted stainless steel, but you must have end boom sheeting, whatever that means.

I wish to resolve this so I can have a compliant system so I don't upset anyone, but I want a system that is safe and responsive and is easy to use in difficult conditions.

Regards

Peter Connor
C18/370
The Smooth

michael yeates
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Postby michael yeates » Wed May 27, 2009 3:31 pm

CAREEL CRUISING YACHT ASSOCIATION OF AUSTRALIA INCORPORATED
CLASS RULES
The Careel Class yachts are restricted classes and tolerances are only to cover unintentional variations in building and changes in shape through age and use
1. CAREEL18
(a) Hull: All hulls must be produced from moulds approved by the Association. Material
- The hull must be constructed of glass reinforced plastic. Length overall (hull
moulding) - 5600 mm (plus or minus 25 mm). Minimum Weight of hull including
centreboard and all fixed fitting as per boat manufacturer's specification.
(b) Flotation: Shall be as per boat manufacturer's specifications.
(c) Centreboard: This shall fit within the moulded centreboard case and shall be at least
64kg. Design and material unrestricted.
(d) Rudder: Design and material unrestricted.
(e) Mast and Boom: To be constructed of untapered aluminium extrusion. Devices to
bend the mast or boom are prohibited. Boom vangs and whisker poles are permitted.
The weight of the mast or the boom is not to be less than the lightest mast or boom
with fixed fittings, fitted by the boat manufacturer as original equipment
Minimum mass of mast and fittings ? 12.70kg.
Minimum mass of mast, fittings and spreaders - 16.75kg.
(f) Rigging: Standing rigging shall consist of upper and lower forestays and upper and
lower shrouds. The lower forestay shall form a straight line between the lower
hounds and the normal deck anchorage point. No jumper struts are allowed. No
devices to alter the tension of the standing rigging while underway are allowed
Running rigging may be used to adjust tensions in jib luff, mainsail luff or mainsail
foot while sailing. End boom sheeting is mandatory for competition.
Shroud measurements shall be as follows.
? Height of upper hounds above mast step: 6225 mm plus or minus 75 mm.
? Height of lower hounds above mast step: 3480 mm plus or minus 75 mm
? Centreline of chainplate from aft side of tuck: 2490 mm plus or minus 50
mm.
NOTE: The above rigging arrangement is as supplied by the boat manufacturer on all boats up to and including number 469.

Hope that helps ...
Michael Yeates

peter connor
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Postby peter connor » Wed May 27, 2009 5:12 pm

Thanks for that Micheal.

You have put a lot of work into that which is most appreciated.

So if I read it correctly then does it mean as long as the sheeting connects only to the rear of the boom, and that it does not induce bending, then the mechanism that gets the sheeting into you hand does not matter.

In short if the mainsheet passed through the rear block and then through a redirection block on the inside of the transom just above cockpit floor level, and then through a floor mounted block in the middle of the cockpit and then up into my hand, then this would be OK ?

Thats my reading.

Any comments.

Regards

Peter Connor
C18/370
The Smooth

jamesw
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Postby jamesw » Wed May 27, 2009 5:12 pm

That looks about it - there's a bit more on spreaders and sail measurements but not relevant to sheeting.

The rules are in the 'yearbook' - a small A5 booklet that's usually given out to competitors at the start of the Summer season. There were probably some at the Nationals but if you don't know about them then . . .

I've also got a copy of the ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing and these have no references to sheeting, mainsheet etc. They mention booms but only insofar as what they hold and where they should be attached to.

In definitions they say: (j) RUDDER A movable hull appendage primarily used to affect steerage. which is pretty interesting.

So, Peter you do have a problem. The solution is probably to stack the next AGM by getting lots of mates to buy C18's and take over the Association. The alternative solution is to accept the status quo.

I have to say that there is quite a lot of variation allowed with the end boom sheeting rule. As Don says, he doesn't use a cleat. My boat didn't come with one either and for years I just used the standard 4:1 system. I did use a cleat this year (off the cat), got knocked down and will never use one again!!

I've used variations too, for a couple of seasons (including Nationals) I used 2:1 with a single block (ratchet) on the boom and a split mainsheet / bridle where the tails were attached to each side of the pushpit. The additional effort was relatively miminal although there was more mainsail twist which couldn't be fixed by more vang tension (as they do in Fireballs etc). This year I used 2:1 with the cleated carbo on the normal slider on the pushpit.

Your solution I think is to get the rules changed because it's clearly come to the notice of the Nationals Organisers (that and trapeze!!) and they've made their views clear on the subject.

I don't know how you go about it and I really don't know there would be many that would support it.

I think you'd hit some major obstacles though and safety could easily be one of them. Many members have C22's and they're forever crashing into the central mainsheet track whether it's atached to the floor or between the seats.

I would consider either my 2:1 method above or just switch the blocks around so that the sheet comes out of the boom end block, that way there'll be a different angle which may go some way to suit your preferences.

J
Katrina C18/200

peter connor
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Postby peter connor » Wed May 27, 2009 5:19 pm

Thank for your comments James.

We must have posted at exactly the same time.

Your comments on my proposed solution would be appreciated.

This got listed before your comment so you would not have seen it.

Regards

Peter Connor
C18/370
The Smooth

michael yeates
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Postby michael yeates » Wed May 27, 2009 6:57 pm

Hi ...
There are I suggest two main issues here.
First "the rules" (which are "somewhere" here on this site) are quite clear in the opening "statement" there is variation allowed but not beyond what is stipulated. This would therefore seem to require attention to the final NOTE in what I sent previously, namely that the boat in terms of rigging is intended to be as originally sold. This suggests that the boom end is where the main sheet is ... not anywhere else! The bit about bending is important too although it may not be in practice with a "heavy" boom given the relatively small main but any hanger along the boom could induce at least some bending esp if the main sheet was then led to the floor but taking it to hand from the boom when not racing ... well why not?
The second issue is the extent to which the racing is between reasonably similar boats given that some variations are allowed eg to centreboard and rudder. I have seen classes more or less destroyed by too much emphasis on changing equipment that is not controlled to the point where the numbers of people interested in racing diminishes ... the top end is highly competitive, some enjoy participating but quite a few simply don't (or won't) bother racing because the performance difference is too great.
I notice for example that spreaders seem common yet I don't believe any of the Careels I have seen in Queensland (yet) have spreaders (correct me please) ... but this is an option allowed and is possibly far more beneficial than bending the boom a bit.
I would tend to use an additional hanger on the boom led to hand when not in "serious" racing, and as James says, try the other alternatives or the standard at the boom end. Sadly I sold my Harken friction block with my last racing dinghy years ago ... I now wish I hadn't ...!
In summary, it is probably a matter of who cares what is done if the boat isn't raced and can be rigged to comply when racing. So why bother changing the rules?
Michael Yeates

michael yeates
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Postby michael yeates » Wed May 27, 2009 7:10 pm

To make it a bit easier to find, here is link to the version of the Class Rules I copied the extract from, see http://www.careel.com/forum/files/classrules_396.pdf

Maybe not the version you would take to the High Court though?
Michael Yeates

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maxm
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Postby maxm » Wed May 27, 2009 7:49 pm

michael yeates wrote:To make it a bit easier to find, here is link to the version of the Class Rules I copied the extract from, see http://www.careel.com/forum/files/classrules_396.pdf

Maybe not the version you would take to the High Court though?


Your document looks like it'd be High Court acceptable to me! They don't change often and a large part of the reason for that is that they can only be changed by a majority vote at an AGM. So James is right, Pete would need to line up about 10 other like-minded Careel owners and storm the meeting next year. That'd be more interesting than the usual fare, that's for sure! :lol:
Max
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jamesw
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Postby jamesw » Wed May 27, 2009 8:47 pm

Yes Peter I can't fault your comment. If the only attachment to the boom is at its end then it probably doesn't matter where it ends up.

I'd support you on that. Just don't extend the logic to having a hanger in the middle of the boom (without ten C18 mates crashing the next AGM!!).
Katrina C18/200

don47
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Postby don47 » Thu May 28, 2009 6:21 am

Peter.
There you go, you have your issue solved apparantly, regarding your mainsheet.
I can understand some of your questions and thus strange thoughts towards the rules regarding, rudders, centreboards, etc, these are critical items.
Have these items always been unrestricted in the form that they are? And what of spreaders, interesting all that! Someone may be able to give us the history on these matters.
The rules must be acknowledged, certainly with serious racing or trouble comes about in one form or another as M. Yeates. points out.
I myself, at last years Nats. had to observe the end boom sheeting rules a bit more closely and in doing so adopted and utilised a system to which
James is now pointing out in his post. No doubt at the next Nats. I'll use the same system again.
Further to the rules, Micheal you'd realise that you didn't highlight all, other wise, yes it's understood that you'd be there all day posting. However, we must also all pay attention to the Careel safety check list,
Waterways ( now Martime) AYF ( now AY, I believe) and other Careel recommended and comment sections.
Each and every member of the Careel Assoc. should have or gain a copy, maybe when paying your membership we all could be given an up to date latest version.
Regards.
Don.

don47
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Postby don47 » Thu May 28, 2009 6:59 am

By the way and to deviate from the stern matters above.

A lady golfer went down onto the course with some friends, teed off and started off to what should have been a good day.
However she got stung by bee. Not being able to put up with the pain, she announced to her friends that she would have to call it quits.
She arrived back at the clubhouse and the golfing pro there saw her and enquired why she was back so soon.
She said that she'd been stung by a bee and the pro asked her where she'd been stung.
To which the lady said between the 1st and 2nd hole.
The golfing pro replied, your stance must certainly be to wide.
Don.

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Postby jamesw » Thu May 28, 2009 8:29 am

Moving right along!!

Spreaders were introduced becuase the original extrusions either became too exy or not available. The thinner mast sections needed a little support.

As Ian Lee will attest they also come in handy to mend a previously bent mast.

This is the bit about spreaders that follows on from Michaels post:

Spreader may be fitted, but are not mandatory. Where fited, they shall comply with the
following:
? Height of spreader attachment to mast above mast step 3480mm plus or
minus 75mm.
? Length of spreader from mast to upper shroud.680mm plus or minus 10mm.
? Angle swept aft by spreader from beam 35 degrees plus or minus 2 degrees.
NOTE: The intention is for the spreader to be positioned in the same plane as the mast and the upper shroud.
? Height of spreader tip at shroud above spreader attachment to mast 130mm plus or minus 10mm.
? Upper shrouds shall be clamped to spreader tips
? Spreader material, section and dimensions accordance with spreader manufacturer's specification.
Katrina C18/200

peter connor
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Postby peter connor » Thu May 28, 2009 9:59 am

Thanks Don, Micheal, Ian, Paul and James for your comments.

I will post photos of the mainsheet layout for all to comment later once I actually put in the extra pulley on the inside face of the transom.

Just one thought.

If we all have to keep the adjustment systems of all the controls exactly as they were when supplied originally when the boat was purchased, does that mean we all have to only use the cleats on the mast for mainsheet and jib luff tension and only the stock standard vang system and old plastic winches for the jib sheets tension, and roller reefing on the jib etc, etc, etc.

And a last comment that as Natural History has shown us through the ages, the only constant is change.

Regards

Peter Connor
C18/370
The Smooth

jamesw
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Postby jamesw » Thu May 28, 2009 10:39 am

Not at all Peter. Mainsheet position (ie "end boom") is pretty much the only constraint.

As the rules say stuff like rudder and centreboard are open.

I don't think you'll find two Careel 18's that are alike, most have some variation or other, you just picked the only thing that is regulated!

The remarkable thing is that over the last few years the main meeting which is the Nationals have been won by all three versions (YNot - mk3, Grabs - Mk2, Katrina and Buhawi mk1a and b). Remarkably they are quite different except in the underwater shape (apart from the centreboard slot which is wider on the mk2 and 3).

J
Katrina C18/200

peter connor
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Postby peter connor » Thu May 28, 2009 11:55 am

James

My comments were in respect of Micheal's comments, ps I forgot to thank Michael, thanks again Micheal, which he has extracted the following note;

"Note the above rigging arrangement as supplied by boat manufacturer on all boats up to and including number 469"

This followed the class rules, the inference being that changes to the stock boat equipement arrangement could not be used, thus the extra pulley on the transom and floor pulley could not be used as this was a departure to the equipment arrangement supplied even though this would still be end boom sheeting.

Thus a departure from the stock standard equipment supplied with the boat on all items mentioned would not be permissible.

Eg the cleats supplied on the mast would be the means of adjusting items, and no additions to the running rigging to allow adjustments would be permitted including feeding these back to the cockpit etc.

Regards

Peter Connor
C18/370
The Smooth


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