Keel Hauled (vital C18 keel repair information)

Ivana

Keel Hauled (vital C18 keel repair information)

Postby Ivana » Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:40 pm

It has been done!

Ivana has successfully had her keel removed

Full story and details to come.

Only casualty was Bundy Bruce's pinky (not a total loss but repairable)

Thanks to Fritzelhund, Bundy Bruce and a belated Paul for all efforts, forthought and advice.

Dave
C18/121 "Keeless Ivana"
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jamesw
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Postby jamesw » Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:23 pm

Now what - drop in the new tungsten (twice the weight of lead) and carbon fibre replacement?
Katrina C18/200

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maxm
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Postby maxm » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:04 pm

Dave,

Great G-clamp!! :lol:
Max
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Ivana

Keel Bolt Re-installation

Postby Ivana » Fri May 05, 2006 11:40 am

OK progress is being made albeit slowly - attached you will see the slow dismantling of a keel case outer shell and the ply mush within.

The last pic you see is the inner keel casing where a nice oblong hole has been made as a result of the lack of support provided to the keel bolt due to the rotten ply. This has been the source of a progressively increasing leak since I purchased Ivana. Of note is that I could not find any evidence of expoxy, resin or fibreglass around the keel bolt appart from the outer skin covering, so it appears that it was only the ply supporting it.

Now onto re-installing the keel bolt. My best guess is to reposition the pin where it supposed to be (that will be a challenge), cut out the false floor underneath the bolt, so that I can then expoxy layer upon layer of glass around the bolt, from the floor up. Following that I would replace the ply around the entire case and glass over.

Any comments?
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Boat 068.jpg
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Boat 066.jpg
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maxm
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Postby maxm » Fri May 05, 2006 2:05 pm

Dave,

On TSP someone was looking at doing a similar thing to their transom. A suggestion was made to use foam rather than ply. A little more expensive but not too much they reckon and it'll stop that particular problem ever happening again.
Max
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"It could easily be accomplished viz a coppuder"
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jeffro
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Postby jeffro » Fri May 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Hi Dave,

I'm about to do this exact same project on my old girl because she has exactly the same problem caused by having a spare keel pin hole that the gunk has fallen out of. From the feel of the side of my keelcase I'll bet the ply inside looks exactly like yours!

Did your underfloor area fill with water? At the moment, mine is full to the brim with no way to escape. I notice you've cut a section of floor out. I was planning on cutting one or two round holes 100-150mm dia. in "strategic" places in the floor to allow removal of water and gunk and later install those plastic round inspection ports so access can be gained again in the future if required. What's your opinion on this? Do you think full access is required to clean up the mess?

I'm sure going to miss that extra ballast though once the repair is done.

Cheers from Mackay.
Jeff & Laurie 18/119

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maxm
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Postby maxm » Fri May 05, 2006 3:34 pm

jeffro wrote:I was planning on cutting one or two round holes 100-150mm dia. in "strategic" places in the floor to allow removal of water and gunk and later install those plastic round inspection ports so access can be gained again in the future if required. What's your opinion on this? Do you think full access is required to clean up the mess?


Jeffro,

I did this about a year or so ago. It's a simple job and I reckon is the only way you can keep an eye on what is happening under there. I installed mine at the aft end and either side of the keel case, directly below the companionway. That was because at home I keep the boat sloping aft end down so rain can drain off the deck and so any water under the cabin sole will collect under those inspection hatches.

Also, I don't know about the "no way to escape" bit. The ony time I found significant water under there was when I towed the boat home through torrential rain (was like driving through a waterfall!). The rain got in under the forward hatch and soaked everything. A lot of it must have gone under the cushions and into the lockers. When (a couple of days later) I checked under the cabin sole I managed to drain a whole bucket full of water out of there! :cry: Usually it's just damp.
Max
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"It could easily be accomplished viz a coppuder"
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jeffro
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Postby jeffro » Fri May 05, 2006 4:34 pm

Yes, the port locker does let the water out courtesy of some separation of the glass tape joining the two mouldings together. Looks like a little bit of water in there, but the wife sponged up two and a half buckets and the tide kept coming in! This thing is filling to the top of the floor. The other night we sat in the boat and rocked it and could hear and feel the water sloshing against the top of the floor!. Part of the final repair is to epoxy 3 layers of glass tape along the seam to seal it. Aside from that, the only water that gets back out is about a litre or so that dribbles out of the keel case immediately after retrieval.

I was thinking either a single hatch in between the mast support and front bulkhead or two hatches either side of the keel about centre. Just not sure what to expect under the floor with regards to clean and patch up.

Is floor solid glass or does it have ply inside or wood supports?

Cheers from Mackay
Jeff & Laurie 18/119

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maxm
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Postby maxm » Fri May 05, 2006 6:16 pm

jeffro wrote:Is floor solid glass or does it have ply inside or wood supports?


Where I cut my holes it was solid glass and no support. Then there is only about 1 to 1.5" gap to the inside of the hull.

I'd go with two hatches if only because it allows for better ventilation of the cavity. You could for instance set up a hair dryer to blow warm air into one hatch and out the other once you've got the majority of the water out.
Max
C22/54 "Katrina II"
Mitsubishi PC Challenger auto

"It could easily be accomplished viz a coppuder"
(Dr Strangelove)

Ivana

What's Under the Floor

Postby Ivana » Sat May 06, 2006 7:29 am

In Ivana, I have a drain? hole at the aft end of the false floor on the vertical face. It has always been there. I also store my boat bow up for drainage but found that I could never get the elevation to drain all the water. The only way to get all the water out is bow down for me and then get it all out with a sponge from the big hole I've made at the front. Quite often this takes a few days of repeat sponging as the water leaches out of the wood I guess.

I cut my big hole in the floor about 18 months ago - I intended to start small - but at the time I had some skeg damage and in the end I just had to have a look at what was happening on the inside. I also replaced the piece of wood that supports the sampson post which was water logged and deteriorating - below is a photo of what's under the floor - this taken with my camera stuck down there looking towards the stern. As you can see it is mainly a vacant cavity, but there is a narrow strip of wood running the length of the keel on either side.

-oops photos won't upload - perhaps I've reached my limit

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jeffro
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Postby jeffro » Sat May 06, 2006 11:52 am

Thanks for the info guys,

Dave, if you could email the pic to my email gst_sucks AT hotmail DOT com this would be great if you can't get it to upload. One slight worry I have is that there is a small leak at the end of the skeg with a very slow drip of water coming out that is always there. Possibly coming from my "ballest tank" under floor area. Skeg seems to be solid enough though, not that I'm any kind of expert. My daughter has a friend who is an apprentice boat builder so I am going to get him to come over and check it out for me so any info will help before we attack the problem.

Haven't posted a picture before so now seems like a good time (hope it works!)

Cheers from Mackay.
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Postby jamesw » Sat May 06, 2006 12:21 pm

I vote for ply as reinforcement rather than foam.

If you see the kids on their skateboards - they are ply not foam and take a real hammering.

After 30 years I'm guessing that anything will finally let go - time for another check!!

Also I've read that epoxy is the best product to use when repairing polyester. Its more expensive so used less by boatbuilders. If you use ply then if you coat it with a layer of epoxy resin (it spreads on a little like honey) it soaks into the pores. If you then put the outer cover on before the ply coat cures (I think they suggest about an hour) you'll get a chemical bond that'll hold right into the ply.

Same with the inner coat of ply (once you've scraped off the mush) - put a coat of epoxy onto both sides then wait before putting on the epoxy glue with the result that both sides are bonded in chemically rather than mechanically. This is what I've read and heard but I have used it on the replacement anchor cover (quite different from the usual locker position) and my control line curved thingy laminated from 5 pieces of 3mm ply).

Aparently West Systems have a repair booklet which might help.

UPLOADING PICTURES

oops photos won't upload - perhaps I've reached my limit


Clay put me onto www.tinypic.com where you can upload a pic then it'll give you a url tag to copy into one of these messages using the Img tag (up at the top) - thats how I got the Less Stress pic into the page (my upload quota went ages ago!

Also the 'galery' set are from www.flickr.com where you can also upload pics (or sets of them)
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jeffro
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Postby jeffro » Sat May 06, 2006 1:58 pm

With epoxy, I did a lot of research on the product when i had to fix the crack in the hull. Epoxy repairs are a lot stronger then repairs using normal fibreglass resin although the bond is still mechanical (called a "secondary bond"). Rule of thumb is to use epoxy for underwater repairs or required high strength repairs otherwise use fibreglass resin. This is because you can't use fibreglass resin or gelcoat over epoxy - apparently it interferes with the catalytic reaction that causes the resin not to harden properly at the bond.

There are a few types of epoxy available. I have used three types restoring 119.The first type is really gooey like araldite and is used for glueing. The second type is like warm honey and is used for fibreglassing and can also be mixed with micro spheres to make filler. The last type I found at bunnings and is referred to as "sealer" and is specifically for sealing wood. It is very thin when mixed much like varnish. I painted all the ply bits old and new inside the boat and it works very well with two coats. One thing I noticed with the sealer that was left over was that it is very flexible when it cured. It also has a good pot life so you have plenty of time to slap it on.

The stuff used for fibreglassing on the other hand, sets very quickly (especially in tropical heat) and can generate a lot of heat while curing (which makes it set even quicker). I solved the problem by using two small paint trays - with the bottom tray filled with ice and water and the top tray placed on top with the mixed epoxy in it. This slows the process right down.

Some caveats with epoxy:

It is absolutely critical the right proportions are mixed - you cannot vary the proportion to alter curing time (although there are "fast", "normal" and "slow" hardeners available). I found out the hard way. In the end I used postage scales and these disposable clear plastic cups to mix the stuff which worked quite well. I never mixed more than 200 grams at a time because the stuff sets too quick.

Epoxy is not UV resistant. It will break down over time if exposed to UV light. If exposed to sunlight, epoxy must be protected by something to keep the UV away from it. For my stormboards, I used varnish which supposedly blocks UV - I'll see how it stands up in a year or two.

Epoxy used for fibreglassing is clear. It can be a bit disconcerting to see sunlight reflecting up through the bottom of your boat as you pass over a shallow sandbank!

Don't put too much epoxy down in one session. Too much epoxy while curing can generate enough heat to damage the bond at best, set fire to everything at worst. For the hull repair, I did the thickness (nine layers of glass) in two sessions. If you do subsequent sessions less then 24 hours after the previous, you will achieve a "primary" (chemical) bond. Any longer and you need to treat as a secondary bond and prepare the surface accordingly.

Don't build up too much and let sit for any longer then a day - it is a real bugger to fare.

Other than that, it is pretty easy to use. BTW I DID NOT do the mushy keel case repair shown in my previous photo - that has been done by a past owner. Not saying it's a bit ordinary, but even my dog said "Ruff, Ruff" when I showed him!

On the topic of coating wood with epoxy before fibreglassing, I'd trust the epoxy sealer for cored ply, but I'm not sure I'd use any other type of epoxy if I were to attach normal fibreglass resin to it.

One last thing, if you are going to use epoxy, look for products made by a company called "fgi" (Fibreglass International). They have the same "systems" as West but are less expensive - at least up in these parts.

Cheers from Mackay.
Jeff & Laurie 18/119

Ivana

What's Under the Floor

Postby Ivana » Sun May 07, 2006 4:41 pm

Jeffro - I sent you an email and here is one of the pics I sent you using the tip James gave me - thanks James. This pic is taken from the front near the sampson post looking aft under the floor . The piece of wood is running along the side of the keel casing and is there to support the floor I believe and probably the keel casing near the pivot pin

Image

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Postby watermarkhome » Wed May 10, 2006 11:34 pm

I reckon this looks like a David Attenborough photo inside and ant hill. On my old C18 I put a bung plug in the stern and drilled holes in the former at the end of the cabin sole so just tipping the boat up on the trailer let the water run out of under the cabin sole, down to the stern and out the bung hole. It made washing out the boat a snap. I'd love to do the same on the C22 but even I'm not heavy enough to tip it up on the trailer!
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