Keeping C22 on a mooring

DimitriT
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Keeping C22 on a mooring

Postby DimitriT » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:03 pm

Hello,

I'm thinking of moving my C22 to a mooring. Having looked at the forums, I know a number of people are doing this although while others think that it's a terrible idea.

Can anyone who's keeping their Careel on a mooring provide any feedback - do you have any major problems?

One technical issue that arises is that I would need to install an automatic bilge pump. Again, there seem to be different views about how to do this. I understand that the C22 has a bildge under the foor but mine seems to be completely sealed / inaccessible.

Should I just keep it like that? Or is it better to install an access window to the bilge so you see monitor what's there? And where should the pump inlet go - inside the bilge or at the lowest point of the hull (which I think is just behind the companion way)?

Thanks,
Dimitri

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WaterMark
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Re: Keeping C22 on a mooring

Postby WaterMark » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:20 pm

Dear Sir

Please see the threads on keel repair and centre case repair. All of these problems are the result of mooring a boat not designed for that purpose. It is however your boat to destroy as you wish. Depending on condition and mooring location, these problems will begin their inevitable destruction in as little as a month. It would be ultimately far cheaper to sell your Careel and get a small yacht designed for this treatment.

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WaterMark C22/83 Ethel May II
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WaterMark
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Re: Keeping C22 on a mooring

Postby WaterMark » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:25 pm

A truly excellent choice would be a fixed keel Careel, a thing I have always listed after myself to add to the collection. I am however planning a Viking funeral that somehow incorporates the Patrol and Ethel.

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WaterMark
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Re: Keeping C22 on a mooring

Postby WaterMark » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:29 pm

How lusted gets substituted for listed by verdamte spell corrector/predictive text thingamys is always a mystery to me. I hate them, they are tricksy....
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maxm
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Re: Keeping C22 on a mooring

Postby maxm » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:01 pm

Welcome back Mark! You'll find it's a lot quieter on here now than it was in days gone by.

As for a C22 on a mooring, every once in a while I'm tempted. There's good moorings nearby and I'd probably get a lot more use out of the boat. But then reality bites when I realise just how much maintenance that means. The keel pin is only one issue. Last year for the first time ever I had reason to pull the table top off while the boat was in the water and was surprised just how far up inside the keel case the water level is. With the boat on a mooring, chances are that the hydraulic ram will get wet and stay that way, meaning corrosion. When the corrosion gets bad enough (which may not take too long in those conditions) the ram could fail. I gather they're an expensive bit of kit to replace! Also antifouling that narrow slot inside the keel case could be a challenge.

DimitriT wrote:One technical issue that arises is that I would need to install an automatic bilge pump. Again, there seem to be different views about how to do this. I understand that the C22 has a bildge under the foor but mine seems to be completely sealed / inaccessible.

Should I just keep it like that? Or is it better to install an access window to the bilge so you see monitor what's there? And where should the pump inlet go - inside the bilge or at the lowest point of the hull (which I think is just behind the companion way)?


It's quite a small space between the cabin sole and the hull Dimitri - maybe a centimetre or so at most. It is worth installing inspection hatches either side of the keel case so that you can check for leaks and air out that space but if it does fill up there won't be enough water in there to worry about. If you're installing a bilge pump then I'd locate it just aft of the keel case, as you say.
Max
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WaterMark
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Re: Keeping C22 on a mooring

Postby WaterMark » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:07 am

Thanks Max

The inspection hatches are a good idea. The trouble is, where the water comes from to fill those voids. Early C22s had a design error in regard to the keel pin being too small and worse, being glassed in. Thankfully many were retrofitted with the later design. If not, the glass cracks, and as Max describes the water level being well above the pin, water begins to wick through the ply internal structure of the centre case. If water appears in the cabin sole void, a great deal of water has wicked in and drained down. Where else has it travelled? I have seen the ram mount bolts buried in something that looks like a swollen sponge. Fortunately the glassing is so massively overdone, that even in this state the structure will hang together. Max is also correct about the rams. Mine is a scratch built 316 stainless replacement that cost in excess of $2000 in 1999. What a fitter and turner or maybe a suitable off the shelf item might cost these days is something I do not care to contemplate. Many of the earlier rams actually were only alloy cased but with a stainless ram. These were prone to heavy corrosion even without mooring, in the boats with the window in the case one can quite clearly see the water freely washing around the entire ram while underway. This is fine if the ram is made of the right materials and your boat has stainless hydraulic lines (most would by now). Even with the later design keel pivot, the wicking is still likely to happen, especially on a mooring when the whole lot never gets aired out. The Rolls Royce solution here is to redo the pivot pin holes in epoxy (as you will see in some of the repairs threads) and redrill the holes. This would be a major undertaking and is simply not necessary if the boat is not moored. I have written quite a lot here without even mentioning marine organism damage. If you have been under a C22 on a hoist with the keel lowered, you will know it is virtually impossible to clean the inside of the centre case without the keel fully removed from the boat. These boats were well built, there is very little wasted space in that void. Just think about the massive damage a barnacle up there might do to both case gel coat and fibreglass and the finish on your keel. Oh, I forgot too, if you have not retrofitted the keel horn in 316, the hot dipped original will be in a bad state if the boat has been moored. On the other hand I have seen these originals in pristine condition on boats that have never suffered this indignity. Oh, I forgot to mention what a soaked centrecase ply structure smells like.... Har, you reckon anyone will want to sail on that let alone sleep on it?? You have been warned.
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Re: Keeping C22 on a mooring

Postby WaterMark » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:05 pm

For some reason I could not edit the last. I should have said the early C22 keel pin apparently could fail and was inadequate to tighten enough to ‘assist’ with sealing out water ingress to the case ply structure. Consequently the hole can even elongate causing misalignment and even worse leaking/absorption. It is early C18 pins that were glassed in with similar results. The official David Rose Yachts tech papers that you can download from the keel repair thread acknowledge this problem though not its potential severity. I suppose these things were noticed relatively quickly and it is only with more time things can get much worse.
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